[Kelly]

I agree, you shouldn't whine or complain about the mens behavior in the firehouse. We chose to be firefighters knowing full well that it is male dominated. I have worked in a male dominated field since the age of 18 and it doesn't change with a job change. Guys are guys and will act as such. If it becomes harassment it should be reported. Getting naked in front of a female coworker invites trouble and they should be made aware of that. I am happy to say that I have been extremely fortunate and have not faced the problems that some of you have. I have my own locker room and have the option to sleep in a separate room, which I choose not use. I remember my first night in the firehouse quite well and I was asked how I felt about some of the guys sleeping without shirts and I gave them the okay, but we established that shorts would be worn and there would be no streaking in the bunk room when I am there.
Good luck.

[dmfmfd136]

"Get over it" ???? I do take offense and am irritated by your response. I raised my kids to have manners...which includes NOT sharing bodily functions. I think it is rude, disgusting and immature. There is a time and a place. I don't share mine and I expect the same in return (work and home). If you think it is ok and don't mind it...then more power to you.
Are you saying if we are in a business meeting that it is ok for them to burp or fart in the middle of it because they are "being men"? How does that represent ones employer? No matter who your employer or your co-workers are there are work ethics. I know our city policy states that porn is not allowed. Period. They shouldn't have to be "asked" to remove it because it shouldn't be there in the first place.
Don't tell me (us) that we don't have a right to whine because you haven't walked in our shoes. You have no idea what I (or anyone else) has been through in our work environments (unless you've heard our stories). I have been in this field for 15 years so I know what I speak of. Who are you to judge and tell us how we should think/feel or to even accept the OLD attitude that "boys will be boys".
I am a woman and love being treated as such. That's not to say that because I am a woman that I can not do my job, because I can/do with much pride. I am honored to be called (and like being known as) a "female firefighter". And neither one makes me less of a paramedic/firefighter.

[ltmalinski]

A business meeting isn't the fire station. The fire station is not your house, nor is it church or the country club. I am quite sure these flatulent Neanderthals would behave differently in any of those environments. You came into their world, not the other way around. You seem to be one of those people that think that because you are a woman the whole world needs to adapt to your presence. Guess what, it doesn't. Guess what else, it shouldn't have to. Men were perfect gentlemen in the presence of a lady before we were allowed to be firefighters and soldiers and police officers, society has changed. I prefer the here and now, and the future. If you want to be treated like a lady go to the country club, it's probably still safe and superficial there.

And another thing... I am one of "you" (us). I was in the Army for 13 years and have been a firefighter for 11, I was even a medic for 6 years. I have walked more than a mile in your bunker boots and have apparently learned a lot of lessons. One lesson being that I don't walk into someone else's house and start demanding that everyone else behave how MY mommy taught ME to behave. Get over yourself and start thinking about how other people want to be treated. The world does not revolve around you, if you don’t want to be around men in their element, seek life elsewhere.

Would you be willing to belch and fart and scratch yourself in odd places if they demanded it? NO. Then why is it OK for you to demand changes to their nature? We are equal, not better.

If you truly behave this way in the firehouse and demand to be treated differently than the rest of the crew, then you shame me (us) and make it more difficult for 'us' to be accepted as firefighters instead of 'girls' that need to prove ourselves over and over again. Does that mean I sacrifice my gender or femininity for the sake of being a firefighter? No. But I will never cry about a broken nail or ask for their manly assistance because I am a female. It only sabotages the efforts of those that have sacrificed their sanity and careers to force our way into this field.

Ask me what it is like to have other females ruin the fire department by demanding special treatment, I know first hand. It destroys camaraderie, it destroys trust, it destroys departments.

As for the rest of your issues, I think it is bull that you need to complete their agility test. You were employed under certain requirements and achieved them at the time of your hire. Having run both EMS and Fire, I know there are extreme differences in the physical demands of each occupation. That is one fight I would continue to argue.

[dmfmfd136]

Are you kidding me?? I can't believe I am reading this. There are some things I would like to say that are probably better left unsaid. I feel like I am beating my head against the wall talking to you. Its almost not even worth responding, but I feel obligated to respond to your neanderthal thinking.
The firehouse is a different "office", but it still has rules, regulations and worth ethics. People's behave not only reflect upon them but also their employers and co-workers. You think its ok they be allowed to run amuck and not have to be held accountable? This is their job not their personal home. If they want to behave like cavemen then let them go back to the caves and live in their "elements".
You know what?! The here and now is 2006! HELLO!?!? This job is no longer "their environment". I got this job just like the rest. I wasn't given nor do i expect special treatment. What I expect is people to act like they are adults and yes that includes manners that I thought everyone's mommy taught them. Why should they be held to a lower standard then the rest of the working world? All I have ever asked is they stay out of my personal space and act like adults. I don't believe that is asking for special treatment. This is not some frat house...we are here to do a job. If anyone thinks that is demanding... then that's their issue, not mine.
I don't feel the need to "proove" myself or I deserve to be here. I can run circles around some of these guys. I do my job to the best of my ability and that speaks for itself. And guess what?! They respect me and what I do. I earned that respect by doing the job.
I wasn't born with them, but I have more balls then some of them (and some of the guys have even said it too). I am a girly-girl, but you know how my guys think of me? They tell me ...yea you're like "one of the guys" you just have boobs" They respect me because they know I won't be pushed around like a weak little wall flower, they know I stand up for what is right and I"m not afraid to tell them the way it is.
How sad for you that you have felt the need to conform to "their environment" and not be true to yourself.

[Firegal73]

Blackwidow: Oh my GOD! That is too wierd! I can't imagine what that must have been like for you.

I guess I am pretty lucky judging from what some of you all have to go through: Women and men have seperate bathrooms in all of our stations. Also, our bunk rooms are all separate rooms, each one with their own desk and chair and three lockers, one for each shift. We bring in our own bedding and make up our room in the morning. I even shine a lamp on a candle to make my room smell nice! We don't have doors on our rooms, but we have dark curtains.
_________________
Firegal73

[ltmalinski]

Maybe I do not understand something, you are torn between taking over the BC/AC/Shift officer's quarters and sleeping with the "immature pigs", yet you don't feel like you are asking for special treatment? Wow.
Another thing I am not clear on is this: weren't you a medic that was blended into a fire position recently? Or were you a firefighter before all this? You seem terribly offended by immature pigs to have been a firefighter for 15 years. You want them to act like adults, what, like you? You cry and snivel about burping? Yes, you are there to do a job, not push your morals and mannerisms on people that don't want to be like you. But of course, you stand up for yourself and your personal space, too sad for me, who has gotten along and gotten ahead without wagging my girly-girlness in anyone's face. You are completely right, it is a job, and we all act like adults, adults that face more crap in a single week than civilians see in a lifetime.
Maybe you have heard that "firefighting is an inherently dangerous job", it takes a special kind to do it, one that isn't impressed with strutting and manners, but one that digs deep into the core of humanity and comes out alive, and hopefully retires without permanant nightmares.
Burping and farting and crude jokes aren't who these people are, and I am sad that you think thats all they are. Get a clue, crudity is just a nice little mask to hide the daily stress of danger, disaster and the threat of not going home to their families. Sad that you can't see past bodily functions, huh? These guys are great humans, and you can't get past their manners. Of course, that's their issue, not yours...

[BLACKWIDOW]

Jen,

You have sold yourself out as a woman. "I hate more than anything being treated like a 'lady' at the fire station" Most of these men would not Sh**/fart at the dinner table if their wife mother date or children were eating with them. No one wants to smell poop while eating, or any other time. Maners are what getting along in society is all about.

" I certainly believe that firefighters should live, eat, and sleep together" ok but these guys sleep NAKED with you in the room, still ok?

" I have worked a long time to be accepted as a firefighter without reference to being a "female firefighter" too bad. You should be proud. I AM

"If they discriminate against you or harass you, by all means, follow up on it." Follow up ? Hello? Have you priced a good atty ? Not to mention the stress.

"The porn in the bathroom sounds like a bad choice, get rid of it, let them know you don't want your kids seeing it, be an adult about it, they just might respond in kind." I have been an adult about it, it is aginst the rules and oh yeah as a public building and public restroom you your family (got kids?) or public official may also be exposed to the porn.

"Take it for what it is, advice and experience. I don't aim to irritate, just educate. I have been in male dominated careers long enough to understand them." I think you sold out, yourself as well as all women firefighters who want and have a right to a great job. maybe you missed it but I HAVE BEEN AT IT OVER 22 YEARS.

THE BLACK WIDOW
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[ltmalinski]

Good for you, Black Widow. 22 years. Did you get there by crying everytime someone burped? Or did you let it roll off and then let them catch on that it doesn't get a rise out of you?

Do you get the point that I am not their wife/mother? That I am a FIREFIGHTER? The last thing I want is these guys thinking of me as their wife or mother, good God it's hard enough getting them over the fact that I am female. I bust my a** every day, just like they do, to prove that I am every bit a member of the team that they are, even when new guys come in and think of me as an oddity. The biggest battle? WOMEN that don't pull their weight and want to be treated like LADIES. They don't want to get dirty, or they show off that they are dirty, hoping to get praise for 'having balls". How about this: We just do the job and depend on that instead of making a spectacle of ourselves?

Sleeping naked? Are you serious? Personally, I slept with twenty or more guys at a time in the army, but we all held to boxers and tee shirt rule. Even those "immature pigs" respond to matureity if you give them the chance.

The point made by DMFM was that she was torn between bumping senior officers out of their sleeping quarters or sleeping in GP with the 'immature pigs'. That made me a little mad, she wants to be accepted, she doesn't want to raise a stink. Whatever. What she seems to want is to be treated like a princess and wiggle her girly girl and then get offended when the men respond. I picture DMFM to be like one of the women on my department, she feels free to talk however she wants, flirt outragiously, despite being married, and then gets offended when someone she does'nt like says a potty mouth word or slips a fart. When guys flirt its called harassment, when girls do it, its just part of being a girly girl? NOW I GET IT!!! This, ladies is why we are stuck in this rut, because SOME women want different rules.

If you noticed, I agreed with you on the porn issue. Did acting like an adult fix the problem? Did they act in kind? If not, I am sure you know how to use a chain of command.

Let me finish by saying I know very well the price of a good attorney. For one thing, Civil Rights Attorneys are almost impossible to come up with. How do I know this? Because I filed a complaint with the EEOC against my fire department for hiring two dramatically less qualified males over me. I didn't cry, I didn't whine, I took action. It turns out that EEOC agreed with me. As you might have guessed, I am a strong woman, I am also a good firefighter. I don't put up with flirting, discrimination, or harassment, whichever gender it comes up from. I would never put up with porn in the department bathroom, or someone coming into the fire department wanting to change everything to fit their personal ideals. I ESPECIALLY do not like people who think that because of their gender they deserve to have to world revolve around them.

That's it in a nutshell. If you want to know more, not just the irritation the princess brings out, feel free to email me

[ltmalinski]

Rereading these posts has lead me to a conclusion. We all are fighting the same battle. We just have different tactics. Of course we each think we have the right way of doing things.
I have come to the conclusion that DMFM is a lot like one particular female at our department who has played a large part in the rise of crappy politics due to her flirting, abuse of harassment charges, and sweetheart leadership style. DMFM might not truly be like her, but this is how I interpret DMFM's writings.

I have fought long and hard to be successful in male dominated careers, first the Army, now the fire service. If I strive to prove myself, it is only in the sense to help men understand that women are capable of doing the jobs we wish to do. 13 years in the Army, 6 in EMS, 11 in fire. you do the math.

I have lived in a tent with dozens of men for weeks straight, not just 24 hours, for the sole reason that I was a SOLDIER, not a girl, we had no special tents for women. I did not ask for special treatment, and I did not accept any. Yes, I even have turned down jobs because I was chosen for my gender. No, I don't throw the gender flag when it will make my life easier, because I know that accepting special treatment now will only hinder progress for the rest of womankind.
I don't believe that we can achieve equality by asking for special treatment, because no matter how well we do in the end, it will always be because we had to have a little help along the way. Does this mean I am a hard charger that won't accept help? Not at all, but it better not be any more help that the next guy requires.

I have been on EMS scenes where women are too ladylike to lift a patient, and the firemen gladly help them and smile to their face, and then turn around shaking their heads.

I have been around the firehouse when off-duty women come in in hootchy clothing, the men make a big deal, give them the attention they want, and then turn around and shake their heads when she leaves.

I know women who have had their husbands cheat on them with "firehouse ho's", I blame the men, not just the women, but I understand why wives are apprehensive to have their husbands around such women. It isn't just a matter of insecurity, it's a matter of treating our sisters with disrespect by flirting with their husbands. If men openly act like gigalos at work, we consider them slimeballs, what does that make women that do it? If we make this kind of behavior unacceptable, maybe the drama will stop, too.

I have been around women that talk trash with guys and then cry that they were unwillingly subjected to man-pig bahavior. I personally know a girl that came into a conversation, took part in it, then complained later that she had been subjected to harassment. She never said a word or indicated that she was feeling harassed. If we stop this, we stop false harassment charges, and lend more credibility to real claims when they come up.

I have taught Harassment and Discrimination classes where men actually come out and express their fears of women in the fire department. I do my best to educate them about legalities of discrimination, harassment, false accusations and the role of local government and insurance companies in law suit settlements. It helps them understand how some rumors and misconceptions start. I think a lot of women could also benefit from classes like this, too.

Most importantly, I believe that we all work together for a greater goal. I believe equality is the ultimate goal, and referring to the majority of the people we work with as "immature pigs" can only hinder our progress. Worse than saying it out loud and alienating every person you work with, it is the way you THINK. We can change what people act, but only THEY can change how they think. Right now, in our own civil rights battle, we are changing how they act through laws. We have to learn to help them change how they think by proving their prejudices invalid. Men and women alike still think that women have no place on the fireground. Even those that think it is OK for us to be here, as long as we can perform (the patent caveat for this discussion), still have a hard time accepting that we should have rank and the authority that goes with it.

The battles I have fought almost always involved either men not accepting a woman's rank or seniority, or women acting innapropriately and men responding in a base manner:
-Women flirt, men think women should flirt, but it makes all of us less in their eyes.
-Women giggle and titter, men think we are all airheads.
-Women assume a 'sweetheart style' of leadership, men think they don't have to take orders from any of us because that one doesn't expect it.

Here's another thing I learned from a student; women that are assertive must be lesbians. I can't quite figure out why this is such a common train of thought, but most of the younger men held it to truthlike proportions. I also don't understand why our sexual preference makes a difference, but there you have it. Maybe some females aviod an assertive demeanor to avoid this theory? Who knows?

Well, this is how I think. take it or leave it. I have not abandoned my gender, I have tried to protect it. No, I do't act like a perfect lady at the firehouse, it isn't the place for it. It's the place for firefighters.

Jenn

[Bombera5522]

I'm a FF in Philadelphia (5 years) and I know we go through alot of BS with some guys on the job but I have to say I blame the Dept on alot of things. There is no separate bathrooms or quaters in alot of our stations. If the chief knows they are getting a female then they add a deadbolt to the bathroom door for our privacy(but not all stations). But the bunkroom is for all and I know the snoring and farting is annoying but it is also a function you cant control when your sleeping. So you can't get mad at them for that. And we have work official uniforms that we wear all day and the same to bed. I found it odd that some of you said you have sleeping gear you wear or some of the guys wear nothing at all!!! I feel the same way you feel on alot of things but I make sure that the guys know why I am there(to do my job) and not for their entertainment or to hinder their fun. But I will respect them and I expect NO NUDITY!!!!! I have been told time and time again by senior FF that reputation is everything and it is true. But sometimes no matter what you do, how much you bust your but there is those few guys who make your life hell. I am so glad I joined, it felt good to vent the same issue.
_________________
If you do your best, then no one can ask for more...but they will!!!!

[dmfmfd136]

WOW!!! I have missed a lot since my last post. I needed to take a break from this forum that I thought would be a great way to share and help fellow sisters within the fire/ems services....oh wait...that's where i made a mistake. I was silly to think I was actually having a conversation with a sister ff. As I reflected on the replies I received by the person who seems to defend the men...it hit me...girls...there is an imposter amongst us! That's the only reasonable explaination as to the defensive responses and negative replies.
I didn't become apart of WFS to have the same debates and frustrating conversations that I do with the "old school" people. I came here looking for support and help from those who "have been there". B.W. thank you for your reinforcemnet of my own thoughts.
To the imposter I would like to say "time out" I'm not sure where some of the things you brough up came from like..abusing harrasement charges, sweat heart leadership, flirting, sleeping with the husbands, wanting to be treated like a princess, wiggly my ..what did you call it...girly girl??... came from ..except your imagination. I don't believe that was ever mentioned in anything I posted. If you would bother to read all the conversations you will see that you got yourself confused with a couple DIFFERENT issues. The sleeping qtrs questions was one of its own. If you bother to read it with an open mind...what I was asking was how to NOT be treated special. I was looking for the best way to handle the situation. I wasn't expecting to be brow-beated with your negative comments. I was just soliciting advise ...which I thought was the purpose of this board. Their behavior was in response to someone's else's post about what she experienced. And basically is MY opinon on most guys behaviors ...whether they are ffs or not. OH..and by the way the pig behavior I was speaking of is not in sleeping qtrs.
Let me tell you that you are way off base if you think I'm a princess. It's comments like that and blaming the girls that lead me to believe you are an imposter. And you know why??? Because I've heard those uneducated comments from guys. Just because I look and act like a girl or refered to as a female firefighter (which I like BW is very proud of) doesn't make me a princess. Truth be known....I can make some of them blush by my "potty mout", I don't fly the "gender flag", I am not married nor do I flirt or sleep with my co-workers (with the exceptiong of my fiance and that is at home...is that allowed??) And I ask you (sisters) what guy doesn't think we (women) are their mother/wife?? LOL
I work side by side with these guys and do my job without batting my eyes to have them do for me. I have beer and break bread with them. I am not easily offended by things they say. If I get dirty I take a shower. I don't care if they want to watch or look at porn (altho it I agree it shouldn't be out for the public to see). I don't think its much to expect all people (males, females, adults, children) to be respectful and have manners...no matter where you are, what your situation is or who you are.
Do me a favor imposter...don't judge me, call me names, try and get in my head or assume things about me until you have taken the time to get to know me and hear my story. OH...here's something else some mommies taught their kids...if you don't have anything nice to say then don't say anything at all.
I am sorry you are so bitter, but you shouldn't compare me (or anyone else) to your past experiences. I do hope you find help to work through your issues and find some inner peace and become a happier person. Good luck to you, dude!

A happy medic/firefighter/person is a carrying medic/firefighter/person

[Bombera5522]

DMF, I agree with you no one should insult you or call you names for your post. Your asking for advice and other peoples experiences with the same issue. I can not speak for anyone else but I also have that "it's a firehouse" mentality. But you know what I think, we are all right in a sense, we just have to find a middle. Yes its a "MANS" world but damn do we really need to keep our mouths shut when one of them does something offensive to us to be accepted? Yes and no comes to mind, I tend to pick and choose which points are most important to me. And I think you could try to do the same so that you wont be so aggitated. I think we have to try and figure out how to be SAFE in the work place and on the fireground. But believe me, I do understand what your going through and I hope you continue to say what you must to achieve the mutual respect at your station.
_________________
If you do your best, then no one can ask for more...but they will!!!!

[dmfmfd136]

ok..it seems my comments about men being pigs, their burping & farting is what people are taking away from this post. again, i will say...this is MY personal feelings about ALL men...not just in the fire station. do i make a big deal about it?? NO. I was just stating MY opinion in general (of all guys). Is it offense that to the point that I cry and whine, as suggested?? NO!! I tell them their a pig and they laugh. So, its no big deal. With age and life experiences I have figured out which battles are worth fighting for ...most of the time!
anyways...the original post was about sleeping qtrs and "a moutain has been made out of the mole hill" If my personal feelings have offended that was not the intent. however, I thought the intent of this forum was to be able to freely post our thoughts, concerns and questions. being the only female in my department I was looking for some validation, advise and sisterhood. I thought I had found an outlet and a "safe zone" not a jr. high or high school catty environment. i am sadly disappointed....

[Bombera5522]

Circle of love people, feel it.
_________________
If you do your best, then no one can ask for more...but they will!!!!

[dmfmfd136]

how about Rodney King's "Can't we just get along"??? I say that to my kids and their answer is no! LOL


I have found a new one that seems appropriate in our field:

a happy medic/ff is a caring medic/ff (could also just make person)

kinda like the one guys use...if momma's happy then we're all happy