[Firelady7700]

Hello there everyone,
I just wanted to throw some things out there hoping maybe you have run across some of these problems as well and maybe could give me some assistance. I have been on the fire department since I was 19 years old. I just turned 34. I am a lieutenant on my department and a fire instructor.
New members:
Does it seem to anyone else that the newbees, the 19-25 year old groups seem to act as though we have to conform to them instead of them conforming to us?
Does is seem as though they act like we know nothing?
Does this new group of recruits seem to do alot of bickering and backstabbing and talking behind peoples backs?

How can I appropriately state that, Yes the path was paved for them, men or women. I was the first woman, actually I was a girl at that time. I did not do anything spectacular. I did as told and earned the place in which I stand today. It almost seems as though the new people feel they should just be put into our positions without having to prove anything.
Please anyone help me with some suggestions.
At this point I just tell them all I do not want to get into the hodge podge mess. I figure as long as everyone does what needs to be done on a scene we are fine but, I do remember the time when we were all a family. I guess maybe I miss that brotherhood/sisterhood or closeness. I am open to anything.
_________________
If you don't have integrity, What do you have. Stand for something.

[Kelly]

It's called generation x or y or whatever the generation is that believes that they don't have to do a thing to get something. Most of them have no work ethic and they come into a company, ambulance service, or fire department and think they know more than we do. I worked one place where there were enough newbies that things had to change to conform to them and the old timers were literally run off. I know I was one of them. They even think that they don't need to read an EMT book to pass the test.

[CSessions]

We are having the exact same problem in our department as you are Firelady7700. I'm not anywhere near a veteran (I am 26 and have only been working in the fire service for 4 years), but I worked my rear end off taking classes and getting as many certifications as I could. We just hired 3 recently and as one of my fellow firefighters stated: "they managed to pick all of the knuckle dragging mouth breathers" out of the testing process. They all think that since they went to a 6 week course at the fire academy they are "firefighters". They have to be asked several times to do something. It is truly frustrating, so you are definitely not alone.

[Firelady7700]

CSessions and Kelly
Thank You for your response. I am so glad I am not alone. I just needed to vent I suppose. Yes they want the title of FIREFIGHTER without doing any work. I want to just say one time to them when they smart off about how us oldtimers know nothing and they just took all the training and this is how its done, I want to just say 'WHATEVER", (OF COURSE THAT IS FROM MY TEENAGE DAUGHTER). I do get tired of telling them something and they reponsd with I didn't know that. Well if they took the classes and passed the test why do you not know that. Someday I will say it. Good thing there is a probationary period for a reason.
I appreciate the feedback from you both. I guess I am just going to continue on and do what I can for them, My integrity and my work wil speak for itself, you can both do the same.
Thank You again
_________________
If you don't have integrity, What do you have. Stand for something.

[texasprincess]

I've only been in the fire service for 7 years, I started at 16, (I don't count my explorer time) and what I've noticed a person gets a couple of fires, 1 or 2, and they think they've got fire service experience. I've got 7 years and have been to some of my first department's largest fires and I still get worried that I'll screw up or won't know what I'm doing or will look like an idiot (but I don't). I remember when I started, when one of my instructors had 7 years or so experience I thought they just had it, they knew it. Now I'm like how do people with 7 years become Officers? Then I'm in awe of when people come to me because of my experiance and I can help them. I guess I'm always worried about letting the tradition down. That I'm going to be a disappointment to the long proud tradition. Now a lot of people think that when they join the department and complete your physical your a part of it and you get all the benefits of being in the fire service.

The road might be paved but you still got to do roadwork.
_________________
Don't hire women? Do you really want to rule out HALF the population?

[Firelady7700]

texas,
I appreciate your response. You worked hard. You never lost the focus and seems that you did look up to the one that had the time and experience. Now you are one of them. You got there on your own. It just seems so strange to me that we have people like those who think we all owe them. They owe themselves to do it on thier own.
Thank You again
Kelly
_________________
If you don't have integrity, What do you have. Stand for something.

[dmfmfd136]

I tend to lean towards the generation X, Y and maybe Z! This group of kids believe they don't have to do the work to get to were they want to be. I would like to say that I've found that they seem to be come off as defensive or rude, but what they really are doiing is ask that it to be expected of them..it just needs to be explained in such a way that it makes sense at a level they can comprehen. kinda like coming down to their level and work on bring them up to yours. And jsut to show them you aren't all uptight through in a few of the WTF , *snap* you get the picture. It;ll give them an insidgtful look of humor is in te fire serve. So steal some of your kids sassy things and you then (as work & home!!!)

[BLACKWIDOW]

I have seen the same issues here. It is the new generation and the old guys have just given up. Even the firefighter chores are no longer firefighter chores. I watched one guy steal out of a T-Shirt fire cautioned reported him and watched as nothing was done I even heard him suggest to other firefighters they should get some stuff too. The new guys here are shiftless and lazy. Working harder getting out of chores than to just do it. I had to go to the BC to force my Lt to give me a "back up man" when I back the truck... and to make them wear their seatbelts. They did for the first few calls and as of last night no belts again... Looks like I will be getting a transfer out of this station soon.
NEW GUYS here are lazy with a silver spoon !!

BLACKWIDOW

[Sarah Silence]

Wow...this thread has been pretty demoralizing for a younger person...lemme tell ya!

As a member of Generation X (whose older members are almost 40, now, BTW), it saddens me that some of you are lumping everyone in an age group into one kind of behavior. I'm sorry your experiences have been less-than-stellar, but saying that everyone of a certain age group is a pompous brat is as silly as the good-ol-boys in a department saying that female firefighters are too emotional to handle a major MVA. Simply put: you can't rightfully judge anyone based on your experience with a few members of that group...

Let me tell you about all of the young firefighter/medics/EMTs I know:

-most of us are working full-time at another job just so we can pay our way through academies and volunteering gigs so that we can eventually be full-time and paid on a crew. More than a few of us work for non-profits and hospitals.

-some of us have already spent 4 years in the military, or are in the reserves.

-the guys have grown up in an equal-opportunity world: they don't bat an eye at the girl candidates, nor do they give us a hard time. They're actually awesome team-players. The girls have been in the same world, and aren't afraid of anything which may be put in front of them. We don't expect special treatment, or accolades...we just want to be firefighters, no matter what that means.

-one ff I know has been working at it for 7-8 years...he's already a paramedic/ff and he's looking at the prospect of becoming a lieutenant in a few years. In his off-time, he teaches EMT-B. He didn't get there with a bad attitude or sassiness, he got there because he's an insanely hard-worker. He's not even 30.

-We are awesome at working in groups, at cooperation, and at communication. We aren't afraid to ask for help, or to admit when someone else is better at something than we are. We are good-natured, eager-to-learn and really look up to the people who have gone before us.



Like I said, I'm sorry that you guys have had bad experiences...but don't let yourself fall into the trap of classifying an entire age group based on the behavior of a few. As women who I'm sure have had to overcome stereotypes in your field, I know that you're better than that.

[BLACKWIDOW]

Sarah,

You are right I did lump every one in. You are also right not all are as I described. We do have smoe great "new" guys.
We have some bad "old" guys too.
Sorry.
Hope you have many great years to come.
BLACKWIDOW

[Firelady7700]

Sarah Silence,
Wow I would first state that I did not lump everyone, As I started this topic I stated it seems as the new recruits. and
"Does it seem to anyone else that the newbees, the 19-25 year old groups" Last I checked that does not state everyone, Please read all the responses. We are only talking about the newbees who want us to conform to them. That clearly is not classifying everyone.
For you to state that our experiences have been less-than-stellar, Until you have worked in our stations you have no place to make comment on it. We were stating comments and asking for suggestions on ways to fix or work with this new class of recruits. Obviuosly the new recruits are not going to be in the age class of 40-80 years old so lets face it MOST of the newbees do fall in that age classification. I will only appoligize if there is a recruiting person who goes out and specifically targets the 40-80 year olds to join, maybe then the ethics and type of work would be more acceptable.
I never called anyone a "pompous brat". For you to say that the Good old boys theory of female firefighters being too emotional to handle a major MVA, Some are, so are some men. NOT ALL PEOPLE ARE THE SAME. Man or woman, how each of us reacts is different but that is not the same as the topic of new recruits, maybe you should have been around when some of the good old boys were here.
I WILL AGREE you can't rightfully judge anyone based on your experience with a few members of that group... I NEVER DID, I DID NOT SAY ALL
YOU STATED THAT:
-most of us are working full-time at another job just so we can pay our way through academies and volunteering gigs so that we can eventually be full-time and paid on a crew. More than a few of us work for non-profits and hospitals. MANY DO IT WITHOUT ANY PAY, GOOD JOB FOR ALL OF YOU WHO DO THOUGH.
-some of us have already spent 4 years in the military, or are in the reserves. GREAT MANY OF US VOLUNTEERS ARE AS WELL.
the guys have grown up in an equal-opportunity world: they don't bat an eye at the girl candidates, nor do they give us a hard time. They're actually awesome team-players. The girls have been in the same world, and aren't afraid of anything which may be put in front of them. We don't expect special treatment, or accolades...we just want to be firefighters, no matter what that means. I NEVER MADE COMMENT TO MAN OR WOMAN OR HOW THERE WAS A GENDER THING, JUST A GENERATION THING, MAN OR WOMAN THE NEW RECRUITS I DEAL WITH ARE LIKE THIS. AND NO YOU CANNOT SAY THAT ALL WOMAN OR MEN WANT TO JUST BE FIREFIGHTERS THERE ARE MANY OUT FOR THE GLORY OR ACCOLADES. YOU CAN ONLY ATTEST TO WHAT YOUR REASON FOR BEING ONIS . ONE OF MY NEWEST PEOPLE SAYS THEY ARE ONLY ON TO HELP, YET THEY JUMP IN FRONT OF THE CAMERA AND ASK FOR THE PAT ON THE BACK AS OFTEN AS THEY CAN. (MAN OR WOMAN THAT IS JUST HOW IT IS)
-one ff I know has been working at it for 7-8 years...he's already a paramedic/ff and he's looking at the prospect of becoming a lieutenant in a few years. In his off-time, he teaches EMT-B. He didn't get there with a bad attitude or sassiness, he got there because he's an insanely hard-worker. He's not even 30. ( YOU MADE MY POINT DIRECTLY, HE HAS BEEN ON 7-8 YEARS HE EARNED AND WORKED HIS WAY UP, THAT IS WHAT I AM SAYING, HE WILL GET LIEUTENANT BECAUSE HE IS WORKING FOR IT. MY POINT THEY SHOULD NOT GET IT AS THEY ENTER THE DOOR, SOME OF THEM FEEL THEY SHOULD GET IT HANDED TO THEM, I SAY GREAT JOB TO THIS FELLOW, HE HAS WORKED HARD AND HAS HIS HEAD ON RIGHT.
FINALLY YOU WROTE:
-We are awesome at working in groups, at cooperation, and at communication. (SOME OF YOU ARE, SOME ARE NOT, SOME OF THE OLDTIMERS ARE AND SOME ARE NOT) We aren't afraid to ask for help, or to admit when someone else is better at something than we are. (NOT TRUE WITH EVERYONE, EVEN THE OLDTIMERS HAVE ISSUES WITH THIS) We are good-natured, eager-to-learn and really look up to the people who have gone before us. (SOME DO BUT SOME ARE LOOKING AT WAYS TO GET US OUT THE DOOR. )
AS A WOMAN I DID NOT HAVE TO OVERCOME ANYTHING I JUST DID THE JOB AND THEN I MADE MY OWN NAME.

I can appreciate that you may not have to endure some of the issues we have, I am glad for you. I do however remember when the recruit was seen and not heard. I think we do encourage the new recruit to give anything they feel is valuable, however just like when your mother or father said something, you should just know how to take orders, why must SOME of the new recruits question everything or feel as THOUGH EVERYTHING SHOULD BE HANDED TO THEM WITHOUT EARNING IT.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR INPUT BUTJUST AS YOU STATED WE LUMPED PEOPLE TOGETHER YOU AS WELL.
WE ALL NEED TO WORK TOGETHER. DIVERSITY IS GOOD AND DIFFERENCES OF OPINION ARE APPRECIATED AND TO BE LEARNED FROM.
I DID NOT MEAN TO OFFEND ANYONE, THIS WAS A GENERALIZATION AND A REQUEST FOR ADVICE. WE CAN ALL LEARN FROM EACH OTHER.
_________________
If you don't have integrity, What do you have. Stand for something.

[fyrtygrr1]

I am a member of generation X, although on the older end of the scale. I have children that are of generation Y. This I suppose refers to those between the ages of 10 and 20 something. I have seen the difference in my "Y" kids, as to the fact of work ethic, entitlement, and cooperation. The eldest has a strong work ethic, wants to earn what he gets, and gets along rather well with everyone. He is also a strong christian with solid core values. My middle child feels she should have all the same things her older brother has, and more, since she has a child. She is 18, and aptly embodies the aspects of "Y". "Y" can't I, "Y" should I, "Y" not, and "Y" do I care. She does not believe in God, Allah, Buddah, or any form of religion other than the temple to herself.
My point is, there are different influences to each person, including area they grow up in(the majority of my son's upbringing was in a small town, my daughter's in the city), religion, work experiences(good, bad, length, productivity, etc.), education, raising(my son by me, my daughter by her father), morals, and what they were taught to expect from life.
One cannot "lump" anyone into a group if there are no common factors, but it seems that the "group" you are dealing with have common factors. It is just easier, in my opinion, to hold your ground, and teach these new guys and gals that there are rules, limits, and expectations to this job. No one person is given anything, they MUST earn it all: respect, pay, skills, position. There is nothing worse in this field than an inexperienced officer trying to score "glory points" and winds up getting their crew hurt! Two, four, even six years is not enough time on the job to really be proficient. Those that have logged the miles, the time, the fires and crash scenes, run a million midnight medicals, those are the ones that earn the deference and respect, the leadership postions. They've worked their butts off, whether 25 or 55.
The new kids on the crew need to learn this, either the easy way or the hard way, and teaching it isn't always easy, for them or you. As their superior, it is your responsibility to convey that to them, and stick to your guns. Reward them when they do the right thing with praise and acknowledgement, and discipline when they do the wrong thing, with not acknowledging their glory hogging, with interrupting their limelight performance, and exposing them for the shallow, inexperienced firefighters they are. Eventually, they will choose to either leave the fire service there and seek their accolades elsewhere, or they will conform into the flames busting, ash kicking super service personnel we all want to work with.
_________________
Tygrr out

[Firelady7700]

fyrtygrr1

You said it perfectly. Thank you for another side or point of view.
we all need to work together. Yes you may get a leadership position but if you don't have the experience, training and respect it will be a very difficult position to have.
Thank you again.
Kelly
_________________
If you don't have integrity, What do you have. Stand for something.

[firemom378]

Hello ladies! I am a 28 yo FF/medic and got on the dept. at 21. There have been many people hired after me-some good/some not so good. I can't say that the age is the determining factor alone. There is a 21 yo young man that is one of the hardest working people on the shift, but then there is a 33 year old man that has to be drug out of the recliner to do any training. I think a good portion of it is how you were raised, I am a country girl that had to pay for my car, college, everything. There are people in their 30's that have mom and dad pay for everything. A firefighter I work with that is older than I am STILL LIVES with his mom and dad-YIKES!
Take care ladies and we definitely have to stick together. We just hired another female which will only make the huge total of 7 on our department. I wish I could say that things are so much easier for women now, but I just had to do the whole sexual harassment process last year and the good old boys system is still alive and well. As long as there is 2 years in between gropings/threats the guy can get away scott free...what a great world we live in.

Firemom378

[Sarah Silence]

Firelady,

I'm amazed that you're so argumentative, when all I did was say that there are plenty of "newbies" who directly contradict what you said originally. How can you argue with the truth?

And, yes, you did lump people together. You didn't say "some of them" you said, and I quote: "the newbees, the 19-25 year old groups". You didn't differentiate between just the bad ones...YOU lumped them as a group...not me. Not once in your posts did you say that there were good ones...only one huge generalization of "the newbees, the 19-25 year old groups".

The ones I lumped together are people who I actually know, who fall within that group, and who are nothing like the people you describe. Of course I lumped them together! They're my friends! And they are ALL as amazing as I describe.

The point I was making, which was pretty clear, was that not everyone is like that, and that it is silly to judge ANYONE by the actions of a few.

It's not a generational thing. It's just the ones you've met. And, yes, that makes your experience "less-than-stellar". However, that doesn't mean that your experience is indicative of everybody's house, or everybody's experience. You're right, I haven't been to your house. If I had, or if any of the younger people I know had, you probably wouldn't be venting with such...fervor.

The point, which you seemed to overlook, is this: IT IS SILLY TO LUMP PEOPLE TOGETHER BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH A FEW. IT IS QUITE...IMMATURE, ACTUALLY, AND ONLY CLOSES THE SCOPE OF PEOPLE WHO WILL HAVE THE POTENTIAL TO TOUCH YOUR LIFE.